采访第10期：艺术家奥拉维尔·埃利亚松

▼视频 （建议选择720P高清观看）

Interview

▼奥拉维尔·埃利亚松（Olafur Eliasson）

1 这是您第几次到中国？您第一次到中国是什么时候？您觉得上海或者说中国的大城市，和世界其它国际性城市有什么有趣的不同之处呢？

过去几年里我不时就会来一趟中国，加起来大概有十次左右了吧。我在中国很多地方都举办过小型展览，例如去年在广州郊区化龙农业大观园内的镜花园展览。我记得我第一次到中国参观了长城还有寺院。中国的传统文化和艺术深深地根植于中国的历史中，这让我觉得十分有趣。我也认为艺术和传统与中国当代文化特征的关系值得探讨。文化和艺术的结合曾经是中国盛行的传统，但却几乎消失在中国当代文化的基因中。现在在中国有许多优秀的年轻人才在从事着文化行业，这里有杰出的艺术家，电影制作人，戏剧从业人员和诗人等等。这些从事着文化行业的人是我们社会的共同生产者，而不是边缘者。公民社会必须提供让市民和文化接触的途径，让文化真正融入到市民的生活中。但现在的社会趋势是：人们有业余时间和多余的钱才会消费文化。工作和文化应该更紧密地联系在一起，就像许多年前的中国那样 －文化是生活的一部分。当我第一次到中国的时候，我就看到这片大地上无处不在的文化。所以我也很高兴看到，在诸如上海这样的大城市中有这么多的文化机构共同努力，让文化平易近人，让文化融入日常。

2 回顾您丰富的艺术生涯，您的很多重要作品都是针对特定地点（场所）创作的唯一性作品，为何您选择在龙美术馆（西岸馆）举办这次展览？

我决定在龙美术馆（西岸馆）举办展览是因为龙美术馆的邀请。

我对于在龙美术馆（西岸馆）举办的展览十分期待。龙美术馆（西岸馆）是一座美丽的建筑，黄埔江从它身旁流淌而过，这片得天独厚的场地也正在快速发展，成为未来城市发展方向的探讨和尝试区域。黄浦江两岸建起了无数的新建筑，试图打造这个城市的新形象，那么在未来的十年、二十年甚至三十年，上海应该变成什么样子？我也很喜欢龙美术馆（西岸馆）的建筑本身。龙美术馆（西岸馆）是由两位年轻的建筑师主持的事务所 －大舍建筑设计的，这也许是他们第一个落成的大型建筑。美术馆的混凝土墙面在第一眼看起来或许多少有些粗糙，但我觉得这种“所见即所得”的结构是非常美妙的。在许多的建筑和设计方案中，建筑师会用上大理石或者是金箔一类的闪亮的表皮，遮挡着内部那些廉价的金属结构。这样的建筑往往花哨而引人瞩目。但是在这里，所见即所得。建筑内部的结构和外部的表皮是一致的。我认为这是本真，美术馆建筑没有尝试去扮演自己以外的东西。诚实坦白的建筑为我的展览提供了一个非常好的平台。

▼展览现场 Installation View  photo by Anders Sune Berg

3 建筑是如何影响您的装置设计呢？

建筑空间极大地影响了我的展览。我针对龙美术馆（西岸馆）进行了特定的创作，例如“开放的金字塔”和“静止的河流”这两个作品。我按某种的逻辑顺序将全部作品串联，并让它们和建筑空间产生对话。来参观这个展览就好像在阅读一本书的不同章节。

你在不同的空间中穿行，每一次你的精力只能集中在一件展品上，但是你脑海里还会有对上一件展品的印象，顺势而然，你也会对下一件你将看到的作品有着不同的期待。从这个角度来看，参观展览就像在看一部情节错落有致的戏剧或者是阅读精彩的书本。观展过程成为一段旅程。而龙美术馆（西岸馆）这座建筑的空间序列对这段旅程、这个故事的情节发展有着非常好的支撑。因此我认为展览的观看者才是旅程的主人。建筑和我的作品只是一个舞台，观展的朋友在这个舞台上书写各自的篇章。

▼开放的金字塔（The open pyramid）（2016） photo by Anders Sune Berg

▼静止的河流（Still river）（2016）  photo by Anders Sune Berg

4 您希望通过《开放的金字塔》（The open pyramid）（2016）探讨些什么？

这个问题很有意思，但这个问题只能交给参观者自己去回答。虽然我自己有很多不同的想法：比如金字塔本身的形状代表一种权力的等级制度以及代表顶上少数人和大量底层人口之间的关系。但这个作品叫“开放的金字塔”，那是因为这个金字塔是可以进入的。你可以走进去，再走出来。我从金字塔内部去拆解金字塔的形状，我喜欢这个方式。当你走进去后，你会看到一个正方体，或者说你的大脑告诉你这是一个正方体。这时你感到金字塔上下、里外都颠倒了。这个作品探讨了体验前的预期和体验后的感受之间的变化。现在我不想提前告诉你会在里面经历什么，我不想让自己高高在上。我从原则上反对金字塔和金字塔代表的等级制度。我希望你成为这个金字塔的一部分，自己走进去，感受它，给出自己的答案。

5 您的作品中使用了大量反射的元素，为什么您这么偏爱这种元素呢？

我的很多作品都使用了镜子，或者透明的、快速消逝的材料。这些材料都算不上是实体，因为他们会消失，就像我身后的“静止的河流”所使用到的冰块一样。这些用黄浦江水做成的冰块在两天之内就会完全融化，那时候我们再把新的冰块替换上去。镜子是非常棒的材料，当你看着镜子时，你看的并不是镜子本身，而是镜子反射的内容。这种奇怪的特性让镜子独自出现时几乎毫无存在感，让镜子的存在并不存在。

▼开放的金字塔（The open pyramid）（2016） photo by Anders Sune Berg

6 您在之前的作品“your waste of time”中曾使用过冰，上次您讨论的是冰川和人在时间尺度上的差异性与共同性。我们注意到这次作品“静止的河流”中也有使用到冰，请问这次您想探讨的是什么呢？

我经常使用冰。“你浪费的时间”主要是关于环境危机、气候变化和污染等议题。当我们说起冰，并不会联想到摆放在我身后的冰，而是清澈的、透明的、甚至泛着蓝色的物体。但是你也看到了，我身后的冰竟然是这么的脏，但这恰恰就是黄浦江的真实模样。也许我们应该更多思考如何保护黄浦江不受污染。在“静止的河流”中，不仅展示时间的流逝，也展示了环境和污染的问题。我们有时会有错觉，觉得我们不能改变什么事情。比如人们会认为自己没有办法去扭转雾霾这个现状。我希望有什么能让这些人观念转变，从而意识到其实人人都是利益相关者，从而让他们行动，让他们去贡献自己的力量，最终减轻雾霾。我并不认为人类只能是被动的，我觉得人类可以非常主动。我有一个项目“小太阳”，这是一个有关于可持续发展以及清洁能源的项目，致力于让居住在没电没能源环境里的人们获得能源。

我觉得我的作品是让人们去观看，然后去思考和质疑的。你在欣赏一件艺术品时，你需要不断思考并尝试理解它。这个思考的过程有时候会让你重新审视自己看待周边世界的方式。有些作品很抽象性让它们有时候难以被理解，比如我身后的这些冰块，也许你会想，为什么要这样做？你很容易就能看出来这是怎么做的，但是为什么要这么做呢？这个问题就并不是那么容易能得到答案了。在我们去思考为什么的过程中，我们也会不断的问自己，我是怎么理解我周围的世界。我认为思考我们看待世界的方式，是一件非常重要的事情。

7 我们网站有一个在海外专辑，专门采访位于世界各地的中国建筑师和设计师，有不少受访者表示您是他们最喜爱的艺术家并深受您作品的启发。我发现他们不约而同的提到了“感官”或“感性”这样的词语。你如何看待自己作品中的“感性”和“体验性”？

感知力不是与生俱来而是可以后天培养的，但敏感性则更多是文化方面的产物。敏感性是关于注意力和专注度的。展览的名字“无相万象”已清晰的表明这个展览是关于感知力的，是关于你对没有实体的事物的感知度。有时候事物并不一定会以实体的形式出现在你的面前，只有经过思考，你才能“看”到它。这意味着我们可以通过思考来创造真实。我对我们如何从周边的世界中获得信息不感兴趣，我在乎的是感知力作为一种生产力，是如何在人类对世界的反馈中发生作用。有时候我们会觉得感知力是评价我们对复杂事物的理解能力，但我认为，感知力其实是人类获得信息后，重新创造事物的能力。

8 除了最近在丹麦建成的圆桥，您与建筑师合作成立的“他者艺术空间”也进行着博物馆，私人住宅，城市公园这样的项目。让人感受到您的涉猎广泛。是什么原因让你跨界成立与建筑有关的工作室？

在我的艺术实践中，我非常幸运地和各行各业的人一起合作过，其中有很大一部分是建筑师，比如我自己的工作室里就有超过20名的建筑师。我和我的合作伙伴，也是我工作室里的导师Sebastian Behmann保持了长期的紧密合作。我们在某个时刻萌生了另外创立建筑工作室的想法，该工作室将从属于德国建筑联盟，这意味着我们能真正设计出可以实践和落成的项目。“SOS”就是在这种情况下诞生的。我针对艺术性的问题做出反馈，而Sebastian则从建筑师的角度出发去作出回应。“SOS”的全称是Studio Other Spaces，它的另外一层含义是“拯救我们的灵魂”。

▼色彩实验 Colour experiment 2015

▼(left左)天空凝视环 Sky gaze circle 2016    (right右)  你的多元视野 Your plural view 2011

▼气象学之圆 Meteorological circles 2016

▼你的消失花园 Your disappearing garden

▼暗箱 Camera obscura 1999

▼ 植物观赏 Seeing plants 2003

1 How many times have you been to China? When was your first trip? Can you share with us anything you find interesting that differ Shanghai, or lets say, chinese cities from other international cities?

I have been coming to China for some years now. I must have been here ten times or so. I also have had smaller exhibitions different places in China, for instance at Mirrored Gardens, outside Guangzhou, only last year – a space for research in an agricultural setting.

The first time I came I think I went to the great wall, I went to see some temples and so on. I was very curious about the fact that culture and art are, of course, deeply rooted in Chinese history and identity. And I am interested in how art and culture are a part of Chinese contemporary identity, too. It is clear that there is a strong tradition in China for integrating culture and art. But in today‘s world I think it is a little more challenging to see culture as part of the contemporary Chinese DNA.

Today there are a lot of great young Chinese people engaged with culture. There are amazing artists, filmmakers, theatre people, poets, and so on and so forth. And it is important to see these people as co-producers of society, we should not marginalize culture to be on the periphery of society, right? It is very important that civic society has access to culture, that culture becomes a part of civic life.

I think there is a tendency, however, to say, well, you know, I go to work and then, if I have time and money, I can also enjoy culture. But maybe work and culture should be more connected; maybe culture should become a part of our lives like it was in China many years ago. So when I came first to China I was very interested in the fact that culture was everywhere, it was the whole identity. That’s why I was curious about the fact that today a great city like Shanghai actually has a lot of culture institutions that support the idea that culture really is something that accessible for everyone, accessible and a part of daily life.

2 As an experienced artist, many of your best-known works are site-specific installations, so why did you choose to do the exhibition here at Long Museum(West Bund) ?

I chose to show my work here at the Long Museum (West Bund) because the museum was kind enough to invite me to have an exhibition here. That’s how it works. You don’t actually choose the museum as an artist – the museum chooses you.

I am excited to show here at the Long Museum because I think it is a very beautiful building. It sits here on the Shanghai river, which is very interesting, too. It is a part of a city development, which is so obviously trying to find out what the future of the city is going to be. The river has a lot of new buildings, and I am curious about the fact that the city is trying to create its new identity. What will Shanghai be like in ten or twenty, thirty years?

I like the Long Museum because it was made by young architects, the Atelier Deshaus, this is maybe their first big building. At first one might think that the concrete walls are a bit rough but actually I think it is very beautiful that you see what you get, so to speak. In a lot of architecture and in a lot of design, there is often a surface, which is very shinny, maybe marble or gold, and then there is something cheap inside, some metal structure, right? But here, you see what you get. What is inside is what is outside. It is the same. So it is very honest, it is not trying to pretend to be something else than it is. And that is a very good setting for my works. To see this kind of honesty and transparency in architecture is a great platform for me to show my artworks.

▼展览现场 Installation View  photo by Anders Sune Berg

3 How does the architecture influence your installations?

The architecture influenced the show significantly. I made some site-specific works, such as The open pyramid and Still river. I tried to organize the works in a particular sequence so they dialogue with the architecture. When you come to a show like this, it is almost like reading chapters in a book. You go from one space to the next space, and of course you look at one artwork at a time, but you still remember what you just saw and you have expectations of what you are about to see. And in that way the show is like a theatre play with different chapters or like a book. It is a journey. And the particular architecture of the Long Museum (West Bund) supports this idea of a sequence or of a journey, of a story. And I actually think it is the viewer, it is you who come to see the show, who is the writer of the story. So the architecture and my works create the possibility for you to make an experience when you come.

4 What do you want to discuss with the public on your new work “The open pyramid”?

That’s an interesting question and maybe one that visitors might answer themselves. Obviously I have many ideas, too: I am interested in the traditional shape of the pyramid, how it normally represents a hierarchy of power. The people on the top and the people at the bottom of the pyramid. But my work I have called The open pyramid, right? It is an accessible pyramid. You can go into, you can go out. I like the idea of deconstructing the shape of the pyramid on the inside. Because if you go in, you also see that it is a cube. Or you imagine it is a cube. It is almost as if it is turned around or inside out. The pyramid is about your expectations and your experience. Now I don’t want to suggest or prescribe what experience you should have. Because then I would be putting myself in power, telling you how to behave. As a principle I am against that. I am against pyramids, I am against hierarchies! Instead I tell you to become the pyramid, right? I ask you to go in, experience it, and make you own story.

▼开放的金字塔（The open pyramid）（2016）  photo by Long Museum

5 You use a lot of reflections in your projects, why are you so fascinated by them? I work a lot with mirrors and transparency and ephemeral materials, materials that are not really solid – things that disappear just like the ice from Still river behind me here. In two days’ time these ice blocks will all be gone and we will put some new ones in their place. The water we used to make these blocks comes from the Shanghai river. Mirrors are fascinating, because what you see is not the mirror, but what it reflects. It is a very strange material because it does not insist on its own presence. The mirror is there but it is also not there.

6 You used ice as an installation in your work “Your waste of time” to discuss the difference and commonness regarding the scale (length) of time for glacier and human. And in Long Museum, you use ice again. So what are you trying to express this time? I think all my artworks allow for people to look at and to question them. When you look at a work of art, you, of course, are often busy trying to understand it. And sometimes this process of making sense of what you are looking at actually also allows you to evaluate or reconsider the way you think about your surroundings. Maybe it isn’t so easy to understand the artworks because some of them are very abstract. Just like the ice here, you might wonder, well, why? I mean you can see how it is made, it is very easy to see how, but it is not so easy to see why. And in the process of asking why, we start to ask how we make interpretations of the world around us. I think it is quite important to consider how we actually see the world.

7 In our album “Oversea”, we interviewed Chinese architects and designers across the globe, and many of them mentioned that you are their favorite artist. They see your works inspiring and used words like “sense” or “sensibility” when describing their experiences. What is your own opinions regarding the “sensibility” or “Involvement”in your projects? （Please see reference interviews in the apendix）

I think it’s incredibly important to understand that sensitivity is something we can cultivate, it is not something you have or don’t have. Sensibility is very much a cultural product. It is about attention, focus, and concentration. The show here is called “Nothingness is not nothing at all” which really is about sensitivity, it is your ability to focus on none－materialistic things. Things are not necessarily always right in front of you, but if you think about them, they may suddenly emerge. With our senses we can produce reality. So I am not interested in how I consume my surroundings. I am very interested in sensitivity as a kind of productive approach to the world, I produce my reality through my sensitivity, through my perception, and I am keen to explore how one can do that in a responsible way. We sometimes think that sensitivity is about how good I am at seeing complex things, but that’s not what I mean here: sensitivity is really about how I produce the world.

8 Besides the recently built Circle Bridge in Copenhagen, you also established an architecture “Studio Other Spaces” collaborated with architects, working on museum, residential house or even parks. What was the original motivation for you to extend your working field?

I have, throughout my artistic practice, had the luck of working with many different types of people, among others, a great number of architects. And I have more than 20 architects in my studio. I have been working closely with Sebastian Behmann, my long-time collaborator and one of the directors of my studio. We at open point started discussing doing a separate studio together, one which belongs to the architecture association in Germany, which means that we can actually do buildings and so on. Out of this discussions “SOS”, grew. I contribute with artistic questions whereas Sebastian brings in the perspective of the architect. SOS stands for Studio Other Spaces. But it could also be save our souls!

▼东庄日照图 Dong Zhuang sunpath, 2012  photo by Anders Sune Berg

▼环形彩虹 Round rainbow, 2005  photo by Anders Sune Berg

▼幸福 Happiness, 2011 photo by Anders Sune Berg

▼美 Beauty, 1993 photo by Anders Sune Berg

▼移动的上海 Shanghai mobile, 2016 photo by Anders Sune Berg

▼(left左) 尘埃粒子 Dust particle 2014 (right右) 你的全视界 All your views 2015

▼来自未来的桥 Bridge from the future 2014

▼颜色实验系列展览现场 Installation Vie of Colour experiment

奥拉维尔·埃利亚松：无相万象

展览日期：2016年3月20日——2016年6月19日

展览地址：上海徐汇区龙腾大道3398号龙美术馆（西岸馆）第一展厅及第二展厅

开放时间：周日至周四 10:00~19:00；周五至周六 10:00~21:00；每周一闭馆

In the press conference of the exhibition, Olafur emphasized the importance of invisible things, which is also the theme of the show “nothingness is not nothing at all”. All his works are trying to prompt the audiences to rethink the relation between themselves and their surroundings, and to remind them their roles as active producers.

In one of his works we presents in our video, the color in the room changes from multi-color to monochrome as the light turns off. The experience of color is in fact the interpretation of color. We human beings are the producer of the color instead of the consumer.

Olafur also mentioned his smallest project of the show the “Little Sun”; a project transforms science into art while benefiting all utilizing the sun we shared. As a solar power plant, it brings light to the people who live in parts of the world without energy or power. People power themselves while powering the “Little Sun”. It encourages us to contribute to the world in our way. It also points out that the nature of art is diverse, inclusive and unlimited.

Olafur Eliasson: Nothingness is not nothing at all

Dates: 2016.03.20—2016.06.19

Address: Long Museum（West Bund）No.3398 Longteng Avenue, Xuhui District, Shanghai

Opening hours: 10:00 – 19:00 Sunday to Thursday; 10:00 – 21:00 Friday to Saturday; closed on Monday.

▼ 奥拉维尔·埃利亚松（Olafur Eliasson）

更多关于“无相万象”

龙美术馆联合创办人及馆长王薇女士在谈及奥拉维尔·埃利亚松时说： “埃利亚松是当今极具代表性和影响力的当代艺术家，他作品中的丰富性和巨大的张力令我非常欣赏和喜爱。当龙美术馆（西岸馆）的主体建筑还在建造的时候，他就花了很长的时间参观当时还是一片工地的美术馆。今天的这个展览就是在那时候萌芽的。他是一个有着科学家脑袋的艺术家，并且他观照自然，又极其关注日常感受，这使他有一种能让空间充满能量的魔力。埃利亚松的作品并非一个单一的平面或立体，而是一种整体的感受，他的作品在不断邀请观众进入他的艺术世界，以此来唤醒观众内在的感官。因此，我希望通过这次与埃利亚松的合作，通过邀请他的作品进入龙美术馆的空间，来唤醒这个空间的另一种全新生命，也让更多的中国观众能够在当地感受一个当代国际大师的艺术魅力。”

奥拉维尔·埃利亚松则说， “我想通过艺术作品来放大龙美术馆（西岸馆）展厅空间的洞穴感。这些艺术作品将邀请观众向内观看，探讨其感官在其中将如何作用，为人们在日常生活中梦想乌托邦提供可能。真实是基于我们自身的——是我们所见、所闻、所思、所感和所做的一切。同时也是事物、艺术、空间和城市作用于我们的结果。艺术可以改变我们对世界的认知，有时颠倒乾坤，有时别有洞天——我希望为参观者带来一些这样的启示和疑问。在我看来，质疑‘这是什么’是一个开放的契机，它将为我们习以为常的一切提供协商与改变的可能。”

本次展览将邀请观众深入空间探索，鼓励他们积极参与互动，展出的各系列作品也以此为开启实验性研究提供了方法。奥拉维尔·埃利亚松在作品的选择和陈列上精心呼应了大舍建筑设计事务所（Atelier Deshaus）为龙美术馆设计的充满拱形元素且朴素的清水混凝土建筑。美术馆的建筑巧妙地结合了矩形展厅与弧形天顶，埃利亚松则因此带来一系列包含基础几何原理结构的作品，包括圆形、球体、立方、以及棱锥。伞拱结构为美术馆建筑创造出许多离散的点，埃利亚松也通过精确排布的作品群组将巨大的建筑内部分割为独立的空间。

展出的大量作品都蕴含石、冰、水、或光等基本媒材。摄影与绘画系列作品则反映出埃利亚松研究色彩感知现象及探索世界的方法。光学器件、镜头、镜子和玻璃球加强了视觉感知的活力与主观性，为观众思考其在构建所见之物的参与性提供了契机。展览作品将引导观者去关注他们所栖息的空间和对其的感知，强调观者在探索及共创周遭环境和世界过程中的积极作用。

More About Nothingness is not nothing at all

Ms. Wang Wei, co-founder and chief curator of Long Museum, says: Olafur Eliasson is one of the most representative and influential artists working today, and I am highly impressed by the diversity of themes and great artistic tensions in his work. When Long Museum West Bund was still under construction, Eliasson spent a long time visiting the site, and this enthusiastic visit became the seed for the exhibition at Long Museum. I see Eliasson as an artist with the brain of a scientist. His works reflect on nature and also demonstrate a lively, interested engagement in daily experience; he possesses an astonishing ability to activate space. I also see Eliasson’s work as creating not merely single objects but rather overall experiences. His works invite visitors to enter his artistic world, and inspire their inner senses. I hope that bringing Eliasson’s artworks to the Long Museum will give a fresh life to the space, and allow the Chinese public to have an opportunity to see these world-renowned artworks locally, in Shanghai.

Olafur Eliasson says: I wanted to amplify the feeling of the cavernous museum galleries by installing artworks that invite visitors to look inwards, to question how their senses work, and dream up utopias for everyday life. Reality is what we make it to be – it is what we see, sense, think, feel, and do. It is also what things, artworks, spaces, and cities do to us. Art challenges our perspective on the world, turns it upside down, or suggests alternative views – I hope visitors to the exhibition will be inspired to undertake such enquiries. I see the questioning of what is as an opportunity. It makes that which we take for granted negotiable, open to change.

Through a diverse array of artworks, many of which suggest tools for experimental research, the exhibition invites visitors into a space of exploration that encourages their active engagement. The artworks were selected and arranged with particular attention to how they interact with the vaulted, austere concrete museum building designed by Atelier Deshaus. Inspired by the architecture’s combination of rectangular rooms and curved ceilings, Eliasson chose artworks for the exhibition that use basic geometrical principles such as circles, spheres, cubes, or pyramids. Pavilion-like structures create discrete stations within the building, and the capacious interior is divided into individual spaces through precisely curated constellations of artworks.

Many of the works include elemental materials such as stone, ice, water, or light. Series of photographs and colour paintings reflect Eliasson’s approach to studying the phenomenon of colour perception and investigating the world. Optical devices, lenses, mirrors, and glass spheres emphasise the dynamism and subjectivity of visual perception, providing opportunities for visitors to consider their own participation in the construction of what they see. The works direct the viewers’ attention towards the space they inhabit as well as to the act of perceiving it, highlighting their active role in the discovery and co-creation of their surroundings and the world.

（龙美术馆提供本文作品资料和部分作品照片）

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龙美术馆 Long Museum